Date: October 11, 2007
To: Pastor Dave of the visiting group from the Baptist church in the U.S.A.
From: Caleb Motupalli, Consultant with All India Christian Council, Secunderabad-55
Subject: Eternal Security

Dear Brother Dave,

Loving greetings in Jesus name!

Thank you for considering to come to India. Welcome!

Further to the conversation that we had today, i would like to recapitulate what we had discussed so that others can take warning.

From what i gathered from you, the main basis why the Baptists believe, “once saved is always saved” is on the finished work of Christ on the cross.

I agree indeed we cannot add to that work and any adding to that work is an insult to Christ—a slap on Christ's face!

Here, one is Justified and only then he is made Just (as if not sinned) because righteousness gets imputed or credited to ones account. Imputation takes place by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. And faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ and hearing from understanding and understanding from inquiring and inquiring from humbling—the greatest virtue in the kingdom of heaven (Romans 10:17; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 18:1-4).

But that imputed righteousness is only the minimum balance in our account. In other words a foundation is laid; meaning, we are born again or “passed from death to life” (John 5:24). Our Lord can let us keep that life to eternity but we have to yield to and cooperate with Christ who needs to sanctify us entirely to such an extent that we do not sin any longer. For if we presumptuously sin, the wages are still death.

Yes, born-again means just that: born anew as a babe with a right to be called a child of God (John 1:12). One can do nothing to earn it except humble himself/herself to the point of becoming a nothing—a zero—recognizing that he/she is a sinner and totally inadequate to go to heaven without God Himself coming to his/her rescue. This becoming-a-zero is wrought and conceived by the Spirit, which is the Word of God (John 6:63) even as we humble ourselves. Then we get to “see the kingdom of heaven” (John 3:3) as we come to Church meetings and “hear” the Word of the King of kings. The resurrection or new birth itself is consummated and takes place when one confesses that he is a sinner needing cleansing and testifies by cleansing himself in the Waters of Baptism with the WORD, which is administered by any member of the body of Christ. It is only then that he “enters the kingdom of heaven” or in other words, gets “grafted into the vine” (John 3:5; Romans 6:1ff). “Born-again with eternal life” should not be confused with born-again-with-eternal-life-with-eternal-security. To remain secure without “destruction,” the eternal life of the soul must be maintained or “preserved” by “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26) as with “love”/“good deeds” or simply works-promulgated-by-faith just as the heroes of faith did and remained in Christ (Hebrews 10:19 – 11:40). Therefore, to maintain eternal life we must bear fruit fully knowing that if we “shrink back,” we will end up in “destruction.” We have One to comfort us, who anguished in the garden of Gethsemane fully knowing that in a short while He was going to suffer the torture of the cross in order that we may bear fruit in Him—the Seed that fell to the ground and died only to be raised up again to be in us. So, to bear fruit we must abide in the vine. To abide in the vine is to abide in His love. To abide in His love, we must keep His Commandments. His Commandment is: to love one another, just as He loved us (John 15:1ff). To love is doing good to another, beginning with sharing the Good News and going to the extent of dying for one if necessary. I am in travail myself right now lest it would be necessary for me to die for someone dear to me some day. But should i shrink back? By no means! But know that “Christ, our Passover Lamb has [already] been sacrificed [once for all]” (1 Cor. 5:7b; Heb. 7:27).

Today, we have the right to be called the children of God and we “eagerly await” the consummation of our “adoption as sons” (Jn. 1:12; Rom. 8:23). Since we are in grace, fully knowledgeable about the truth, we are more accountable than others who do not know the will of God. “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant [by partaking in it unworthily without giving reverence to it by getting Water-baptism / Foot-washing, which symbolizes the daily washing by the Word] by which he was sanctified [when he was born-again as well as daily], and has insulted the Spirit of grace [which has repeatedly been warning him of his sin and freely forgiving him]?” (Hebrews 10:26ff paraphrased). Let us not lull ourselves into sleep nor have a false sense of security. Our names can be erased from the Lambs book of life (Rev. 3:5). I especially warn people like Charles Stanley who is one of you that is issuing this dangerous license to sin. The Lord is also with me on this: “that slave who knew his master's will and did not act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes” (Luke 12:47). There is the sin of omission (James 4:17) and the sin of commission (lawlessness – 1 John 3:4). With the privilege of sonship also comes responsibility. We have eternal security only if we “continue in the faith” (Col 1:21-23) like all the heroes of faith that went ahead of us, who put their faith into action and did great exploits for God. We must offer our bodies as living sacrifices, which is an acceptable service of worship.

If we do not know these things, we do not know Christ and we have built our house on sand! Those who know these things at least attempt to continue in the faith by building over the foundation with at least hay and stubble. As any work that we do must be by faith, knowing fully the extent of the righteous requirements of God (Romans 9:32-10:1ff). If we believe that we no longer have to do good works to be “qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints in light,” (Col. 1:12), what shall we say then are any other works done with otherwise? Are they works done to play it safe lest we are in the wrong? The sin of omission (James 4:17) says, “If we know the good that we ought to do and don't do it, we sin.”

With so much in the asking how can we claim right to our share in the inheritance of the saints in light?

The right word to be used in Romans 11:20 is “conceited.” We are conceited if we believe that we had already reached the end of the journey at the time of being born-again, though we can later. In other words we are thinking that since we are God's sons with the “right” or title already in hand to God's inheritance, we no longer have to humble ourselves and submit to one another as living sacrifices nor do we need to bear fruit and please God. When in reality we are only children of God when born-again, and we will remain as babes in Christ not bearing fruit if we pursue this line of conceited complacency. Thus, subjecting ourselves to being “cut off” (Romans 11:22; John 15:1) and “cast out” to be gathered and “cast into the fire” (John 15:6).

No one can be Justified without being Just (humble) and having leaned on the finished work of Christ. No one can begin to become Just (righteous) without being Justified by grace through faith in Christ. No one can end here on earth, "Justified," without him being Just himself through faithful obedience to the Holy Spirit.

Remember Adam—he was a son of God but when he became a slave to sin, he died and left us an example not to walk in his way. On the contrary, we are to walk in the way of the last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha’Mashiach) who was obedient not only till death but in death itself!

Lovingly,
Caleb Motupalli

Last edited by Administrator on Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:28 pm; edited 4 times in total

Billy Graham quoted,

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“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1, NIV).

Note that it is one thing to be a slave to sin and altogether another thing to be a slave of righteousness and of Christ. Apostle Paul states it categorically in Romans 6:18 NASB, "having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." And again in 1 Cor. 7:22,23 he writes that we are "Christ's slaves, bought with a price."

Also, "good works" should not be mistaken for "dead works." Dead works (Heb. 6:1) are those works which are done leaning on once own strength and might. They are done without depending on God. In other words, without putting the trust in God to work in you to perform that work itself. Good works are not like that. They are imparted works of righteousness, for it is written, "it is God who works in you to will and to do His good pleasure."

Dead works are self-righteous (meaning, a righteousness commended by self) and are akin to any works of sin. But not so with good works, which are foreordained righteous acts of the saints who are clean to wear them and receive the just commendation from God when we walk in them.

"Having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, we derive our benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life" (Romans 6:22).

Caleb Motupalli

Dear Brother,

I have not received a response from you yet. I presume you are still busy with giving your lectures. But needless to say our conversation is important as well, for we could be building with hay and stubble.

I do not know about you, but i am fighting a real war with real weapons against real principalities in the heavenly realms.

As far as i can see, what i have stated, is self-evident as well as biblical. And you cannot help but agree. I hope i have won you over.

If i do not hear from you in a day or two i will treat the conversation as "finished." I do have a final request: I hope you will not mind if i take this conversation we had to viewers on my website.

Thank you for taking my challenge for a "sword" fight!

With love,
Caleb Motupalli.

Thus says the Lord: Matthew 27:56
(There are many Marys mentioned here but where is the Mary--mother of Jesus--who began well? May we not follow the example of Mary and Jesus' brothers who believed but followed only after witnessing the resurrection. "Blessed are those who do not see yet believe.")

Caleb wrote:


Dear ,

I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken to respond to my post. I really do, even though i may be tough on you here.


The Brother wrote:

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Caleb, my brother in Christ, You have asked me to read and respond to what you have to say about eternal security at your website, www.skyfeast.org. I regret that I will not be in a position to have a good conversation with you concerning this matter until after the three week term at ICCS, as I have two courses that I am teaching for the first time and will be teaching about 20 hours per week . But I will at least give you a written response. First, I will insert comments in red throughout your email to Brother Dave. Then I will let you know what I have come to believe about eternal security and why. I hope this is helpful. Quote: Subject: Eternal Security Dear Brother Dave, Loving greetings in Jesus name! Thank you for considering to come to India. Welcome! Further to the conversation that we had today, i would like to recapitulate what we had discussed so that others can take warning. From what i gathered from you, the main basis why the Baptists believe, “once saved is always saved” is on the finished work of Christ on the cross. I would not personally base my position solely on aspect of Christology. My position has a much broader foundation involving many aspects of biblical theology. Quote: I agree indeed we cannot add to that work and any adding to that work is an insult to Christ—a slap on Christ's face! Here, one is Justified and only then he is made Just (as if not sinned) because righteousness gets imputed or credited to ones account. Imputation takes place by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. And faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ and hearing from understanding and understanding from inquiring and inquiring from humbling—the greatest virtue in the kingdom of heaven (Romans 10:17; Matthew 13:14-15; Matthew 18:1-4). But that imputed righteousness is only the minimum balance in our account. I am not clear where you get the idea that the imputed righteousness of Christ is “only the minimum balance in our account.” I think you would have difficulty establishing that biblically.

I get the idea from the fact that we are merely babes in Christ (not full blown adult Christians) when born-again with only "the right to be called the children of God!" For, only Sons when they come of age receive their inheritance after they get "qualified for heaven."

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It suggests to me that a person is saved partly by Christ’s imputed righteousness and partly, if not mostly, by our own personal righteousness. The heart of the gospel is that God declares us to be just or righteous not on the basis of our actual condition of righteousness or holiness, but rather solely on the basis of Christ’s perfect righteousness, which God considers as belonging to us. Quote: In other words a foundation is laid; meaning, we are born again or “passed from death to life” (John 5:24). Our Lord can let us keep that life to eternity but we have to yield to and cooperate with Christ who needs to sanctify us entirely to such an extent that we do not sin any longer. I concur with you here – those who desire to be right with God must continually yield to and cooperate with the Spirit of Christ. Quote: For if we presumptuously sin, the wages are still death. I would agree that anyone truly born of God Spirit will not presume upon God’s grace and persist in sin.

Scripture is very clear that "ONLY those who endure till the end" (meaning that there will be those who will NOT be able to endure on account of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life) "will be saved." These are those where the seed fell on wayside, on stony ground, and in thorny bushes. It is not just black and white like the Calvinists see it -- i.e. either those who are of the elect or the damned. Jn 6:64-65 speaks of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge no doubt BUT THOSE WORDS ARE NOT GIVEN FOR US TO SING LULLABIES OF PREDESTINATION/ELECTION, ETERNAL SECURITY AND PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS TO THE ALREADY CONCEITED-COMPLACENT WHO ARE JUST ON THE LOOKOUT FOR A LICENSE TO SIN. THOSE WORDS ARE THERE ONLY TO SHOW AND COMFORT THOSE WHO SEE INJUSTICE ALL AROUND THAT GOD IS IN CONTROL. BUT NOT THAT HE CONTROLS US LIKE AUTOMATONS OR PUPPETS.

What is more we are called "to make our calling sure!" This speaks of the "grey area." Those whose soils are stony and the plant DID spring up; those whose soils are thorny where the plant DID spring up.

When we tell people about Predestination/Election, Eternal Security and that Saints will persevere we are no better that Fatalists.

Predestination is only written in the context of the Remnant ("in Him" Eph 1:4) that God will have in the end and saw before the foundation of the earth. Eternal Security also, as long as we "abide in Him." Don't "stumble on" and "stumble others" with some few verses here and there. They have their explanation. They are given for those who are "entirely sanctified" (1 Thess 5:23) who are bearing some fruit in spite of severe, obvious hardships and need encouragement to bear more.

There is no such thing in scripture that the Saints will in fact persevere. Rather it is written: "For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it."
Let us not play God! Speculating who God has chosen removes the fear from them when they ought to be having fear. This open speculation gives them a free license to sin. On the other hand we are warned to tell "many are called but few are chosen" and "only those who endure till the end will be saved." THOSE IN THE GREY AREA OUGHT TO BE ASKED TO "BEAR FRUIT" AND "ENDURE" AND "MAKE THEIR (UNCERTAIN) CALLING SURE" WITH "FEAR AND TREMBLING!"


I SAY THIS TO ALL CALVINISTS NOT JUST YOU: "FOR YOUR OWN SKIN'S SAKE, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, STOP ISSUING THIS DANGEROUS LICENSE TO SIN! (Matt 5:19; 18:6)."


God cannot be mocked. His patience is running out and only a fearful expectation of raging fire awaits those who are trampling on Him.

Please read "Entering and Remaining in the Kingdom of Heaven" at Skyfeast.org where more questions are hopefully answered.

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Quote: Yes, born-again means just that: born anew as a babe with a right to be called a child of God (John 1:12). True. Quote: One can do nothing to earn it except humble himself/herself to the point of becoming a nothing—a zero—recognizing that he/she is a sinner and totally inadequate to go to heaven without God Himself coming to his/her rescue. True. Quote: This becoming-a-zero is wrought and conceived by the Spirit, which is the Word of God (John 6:63) even as we humble ourselves. Then we get to “see the kingdom of heaven” (John 3:3) as we come to Church meetings and “hear” the Word of the King of kings. The resurrection or new birth itself is consummated and takes place when one confesses that he is a sinner needing cleansing and testifies by cleansing himself in the Waters of Baptism with the WORD, which is administered by any member of the body of Christ. You say that the new birth happens “when one confesses that he is a sinner…,” suggesting that the act of confession causes one to be reborn. I believe the biblical “order of salvation” is (1) election [God’s choice of people to be saved]; (2) the gospel call [the proclaiming of the gospel]; (3) regeneration [being born again]; (4) conversion [evidenced by faith and repentance]; and then (5) justification [being set right with God legally] and (6) adoption (into the membership of God’s family. I would be happy to discuss all the at another time. Quote: It is only then that he “enters the kingdom of heaven” or in other words, gets “grafted into the vine” (John 3:5; Romans 6:1ff). “Born-again with eternal life” should not be confused with born-again-with-eternal-life-with-eternal-security. To remain secure without “destruction,” the eternal life of the soul must be maintained or “preserved” by “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26) as with “love”/“good deeds” or simply works-promulgated-by-faith just as the heroes of faith did and remained in Christ (Hebrews 10:19 – 11:40). I concur that to be in a right relationship with God requires continuing, faithful obedience to God and his Word, evidenced by “love” and “good deeds. Quote: Therefore, to maintain eternal life we must bear fruit fully knowing that if we “shrink back,” we will end up in “destruction.” We have One to comfort us, who anguished in the garden of Gethsemane fully knowing that in a short while He was going to suffer the torture of the cross in order that we may bear fruit in Him—the Seed that fell to the ground and died only to be raised up again to be in us. So, to bear fruit we must abide in the vine. To abide in the vine is to abide in His love. To abide in His love, we must keep His Commandments. His Commandment is: to love one another, just as He loved us (John 15:1ff). To love is doing good to another, beginning with sharing the Good News and going to the extent of dying for one if necessary. I am in travail myself right now lest it would be necessary for me to die for someone dear to me some day. But should i shrink back? By no means! But know that “Christ, our Passover Lamb has [already] been sacrificed [once for all]” (1 Cor. 5:7b; Heb. 7:27). Today, we have the right to be called the children of God and we “eagerly await” the consummation of our “adoption as sons” (Jn. 1:12; Rom. 8:23). Since we are in grace, fully knowledgeable about the truth, we are more accountable than others who do not know the will of God. I agree. Quote: “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant [by partaking in it unworthily without giving reverence to it by getting Water-baptism / Foot-washing, which symbolizes the daily washing by the Word] by which he was sanctified [when he was born-again as well as daily], and has insulted the Spirit of grace [which has repeatedly been warning him of his sin and freely forgiving him]?” (Hebrews 10:26ff paraphrased). Hebrew 10:26-31 clearly is a strong warning against deliberate sin; grace does not mean license to sin. And so the author, citing Habakkuk 2:3-4, urges believers to persevere. But this does not establish that any true regenerated disciples of Christ will shrink back and be destroyed. Quote: Let us not lull ourselves into sleep nor have a false sense of security. Good warning. Quote: Our names can be erased from the Lambs book of life (Rev. 3:5). Nowhere in Scripture is there a statement that names may be erased from the Book of Life. In fact in the referenced text in Revelation (3:5) actually promises that “he who overcomes will…be dressed in white” and then Christ promises “I will never blot out his name from the book of life.” We may not, with confidence, infer from this that others will in fact have their names erased from the book of life. The verse just isn’t clear about whether that will in fact happen to some. Quote: I especially warn people like Charles Stanley who is one of you that is issuing this dangerous license to sin. I do not always agree with Charles Stanley’s teaching, but I urge you to be careful what you say about him. What has he said that is truly a “license to sin” as you say? We must be careful not to make inferences or extrapolations on what others say and then ascribe our inferences to them. Quote: The Lord is also with me on this: “that slave who knew his master's will and did not act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes” (Luke 12:47). True. Quote: There is the sin of omission (James 4:17) and the sin of commission (lawlessness – 1 John 3:4). With the privilege of sonship also comes responsibility. I agree. Quote: We have eternal security only if we “continue in the faith” (Col 1:21-23) like all the heroes of faith that went ahead of us, who put their faith into action and did great exploits for God. @@This probably will surprise you, but I agree!/@@ We must offer our bodies as living sacrifices, which is an acceptable service of worship. True. Quote: If we do not know these things, we do not know Christ and we have built our house on sand! Those who know these things at least attempt to continue in the faith by building over the foundation with at least hay and stubble. Amen. Quote: As any work that we do must be by faith, knowing fully the extent of the righteous requirements of God (Romans 9:32-10:1ff). If we believe that we no longer have to do good works to be “qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints in light,” (Col. 1:12), what shall we say then are any other works done with otherwise? Are they works done to play it safe lest we are in the wrong? The sin of omission (James 4:17) says, “If we know the good that we ought to do and don't do it, we sin.” With so much in the asking how can we claim right to our share in the inheritance of the saints in light? The right word to be used in Romans 11:20 is “conceited.” We are conceited if we believe that we had already reached the end of the journey at the time of being born-again, though we can later. I would agree that no one reaches the end of his journey at the time he or she is born again. Like Paul, we must forget what lies behind, even our achievements, and press on to take hold of that for which Christ has taken hold of us. Forgetting what lies behind, we are to strain forward toward what is ahead…toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called us heavenward in Christ Jesus./@@ Quote: In other words we are thinking that since we are God's sons with the “right” or title already in hand to God's inheritance, we no longer have to humble ourselves and submit to one another as living sacrifices nor do we need to bear fruit and please God. When in reality we are only children of God when born-again, and we will remain as babes in Christ not bearing fruit if we pursue this line of conceited complacency. Thus, subjecting ourselves to being “cut off” (Romans 11:22; John 15:1) and “cast out” to be gathered and “cast into the fire” (John 15:6). No one can be Justified without first being Just (humble) and lean on the finished work of Christ. No one can begin to become Just (righteous) without being Justified by grace through faith in Christ. No one can end here on earth, Justified, without him being Just himself through faithful obedience to the Holy Spirit. Remember Adam—he was a son of God but when he became a slave to sin, he died and left us an example not to walk in his way. On the contrary, we are to walk in the way of the last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha’Mashiach) who was obedient not only till death but in death itself! Lovingly, Caleb Motupalli Caleb, As you know, I believe in the perseverance of the saints. Perseverance means that God will enable every believer to remain in the faith through the remainder of his or her life. It means that the true Christian, kept by the grace of God, will successfully endure all the trials and temptations of this life and remain true to the Lord until death. But it also means that the believer needs to demonstrate salvation through becoming more like Christ. The bottom line question here is this: Will the believer who had truly been regenerated, justified and adopted by God, and united with Jesus Christ, persist in that relationship? And if so, on what basis? You and I would agree, I am sure, that God is powerful and faithful, willing and able to keep his promises. We both agree, I am sure, that salvation is neither attained nor retained by human works.

Please read Entering and Remaining in the Kingdom of Heaven at Skyfeast.org .

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We would both agree, I am sure, that the Holy Spirit is at work in all believers. We both are convinced, I suspect, of the completeness of the salvation that God provides. And we both would agree that a Christian can know that he or she presently possesses salvation. There is a lot that we can both affirm together. As a Calvinist, I also believe that they whom God has accepted in Christ and effectually called and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, cannot totally or finally fall away from the state of grace, but will persevere to the end and be saved forever. I believe this, not because I want to, but because there are many texts in the Bible which to me so clearly support this view. For example, 1 Peter 1:3-5 says “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith (Caleb: there is a condition here) are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.” Peter here speaks vividly and powerfully about our salvation as being incapable of being destroyed.

The inheritance here is the Remnant's Promised Land and NOT an individual's salvation.

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It cannot be corrupted or spoiled by the introduction of something impure. And it never fades, no matter what influences are brought to bear on it.

Please read Haggai 2:13 .... a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

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Various texts emphasizing the persistence and power of God Love also support this view of perseverance. For example, Paul writes in Romans 8:31-39 “31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: ‘For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.’ 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” He is saying to the Christians at Rome that nothing, not even our blunders and failures, will be able to separate us from God’s love for us. Nothing! Nothing in our past, or present or our future – nothing! In Philippians 1:6 Paul makes it clear that Christ does not give us eternal life and then abandon us to our human efforts to remain faithful. Rather God continues to work in the life of the believer. Paul says that we may be confident “that he who began a good work in [us] will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.”

On His part He will. What about our yielding to Him? Are we automatons or puppets in His hand? Is He all the time dragging us either into heaven or into hell?

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In addition to this, the Bible tells us in Hebrews 7:25 that Christ is “able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Since the Father always hears his prayers (John 11:42), it makes sense that these prayers of intercession are effectual and will indeed be answered. Perhaps the most straightforward statement concerning the perseverance of the saints is found in John 10:27-30 where Jesus says, “27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." His sheep – those who truly belong to him – will never perish.

More speculation. These verses only tell that the Devil and his entourage cannot match the Father. It does not mean that we ourselves cannot let go of His grip on us. The bonds are only made of agape love (Jer 31:3). One can choose not to love. The decision is left to us. If the decision is not left to us there is no freedom and then it is no longer love.

I don't mean to raise my voice but please read: "HOLD FAST TILL I COME...HOLD THAT FAST, WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO ONE TAKE THY CROWN ... BLESSED IS A MAN WHO PERSEVERES UNDER TRIAL; FOR ONCE HE HAS BEEN APPROVED, HE WILL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE, WHICH THE LORD HAS PROMISED TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM (Revelation 2:25; 3:11; James 1:12). Others "shall lose that crown which they once seemed to have a right to, which they hoped for, and pleased themselves with the thoughts of. The persevering Christian shall win the prize from backsliding professors, who once stood fair for it" (Matthew Henry Commentary).

Note the crisp message to the only church, which was in the good books of the Lord: "They kept the Word of His perseverance!" Matthew Henry comments, "The gospel of Christ is the word of his patience/perseverance/endurance. It is the fruit of the patience/perseverance/endurance of God to a sinful world; it sets before men the exemplary patience/perseverance/endurance of Christ in all his sufferings for men; it calls those that receive it to the exercise of patience/perseverance/endurance in conformity to Christ. This gospel should be carefully kept by all that enjoy it; they must keep up to the faith, and practice, and worship prescribed in the gospel."

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Similarly Paul had complete confidence in God’s keeping: “12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.” Paul here is referring to God guarding what he had entrusted to him, namely his commitment to Christ. John writes in his first letter (1 John 3:10) “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God.” That is a powerful statement. A truly born-again follower of Christ cannot possibly continue to sin. We can sin, of course, but eventually the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin and cause us to deal with it.

The phrase "he cannot go on sinning" means he will not remain in the habit of sin. We are not to derive confidence from this verse and presume that since we know that we are born of God, we are not in the habit of sinning. But rather we have to take warning that if we are given to or habituating to sin, we are not of His.

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Finally, perseverance is implied by the biblical teaching of that we can be assured of our salvation. 1 John 5:13 says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” How could one have this assurance if it were possible to lose one’s salvation? That just doesn’t make sense to me. That we can have such assurance means that our salvation ultimately must be secure.

Attributing the Voice to that of Satan's voice, the one who quenches the Holy Spirit, which corrects him could not help but say: "Redemption, while in Christ is complete (? see Rom 8:23) and perfect, is something that is going on; we are receiving the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls (1 Pet 1:9)."

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Yes, I will admit, there are “other texts” that seem to support the Arminian perspective, mainly biblical warnings against apostasy. You may think that such warnings make no sense, if, in fact, the believer cannot fall away. And similarly, there are other passages that urge believers to continue in the faith (e.g., Hebrews 6:11-12 and1 Corinthians 9:27). You may see no need for such exhortations, if continuing in the faith were assured. But these passages do not explicitly teach that a saved person can lose his or her salvation. For me to change my position on all this I would need to see clear teaching in the Scripture that genuine believers can and do apostasize . The two texts most often cited for this are Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27, the latter of which you quote in your message to “Brother Dave” above. I will concede that these texts do seem to support your position. But because they contradict what is for me the more clear and pervasive teaching of Scripture that saints persevere, I look for another way to interpret these two texts from Hebrews. The most common interpretation of these difficult passages are: (1) it refers to Christians who actually lose their salvation; (2) it is a hypothetical argument to warn immature Hebrew Christians [see 5:1-11] that they must progress to maturity or else experience divine discipline or judgment; or (3) it refers to professing Christians whose apostasy proves that their faith was not genuine [cf. 1 John 2:19, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”].

John too has fallen into the trap of prejudging people as black or white. Since the Church is invisible, John is not in a capacity to prove that they are not of Christ (Rom 8:19). Mark for example went away from Paul but gave us the Gospel according to Mark.

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I would assume that you favor the first interpretation. I personally favor the third interpretation because it would then not contradict all the texts I cited in support of the perseverance of the saints.

As indicated by me with the term "grey area," immature and hypocritical believers CAN get condemned and burned in fire if they do not bear fruit. The exhortation is very clear coming from John the Baptist: "bear fruit in keeping with repentance." We have to "lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and ...run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Heb 12:1). It is self-evident and scriptural that the author of Hebrews says that a hypothetical case exists, which so happened to be NOT true with those Hebrew believers in particular (Heb 6:9).

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This third view sees chapters 3-4 of Hebrews as a warning based on the rebellion of the Israelites in the desert. As Israel could not enter the promised land after spying out the region and tasting its fruit, so the professing Hebrew Christians would not be able to repent if they adamantly turned against “the light” they had received. According to this interpretation, such expressions as “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift” and “shared in the Holy Spirit” indicate that such persons had come were in danger of public and final rejection of Christ, proving they had never been regenerated.

As i said they DID spring forth... "these are the ones on whom the seed was sown and fell on rocky ground ... are TEMPORARY... and others on whom the seed fell on thorny ground, the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desire for other things enter in and choke the Word and it becomes unfruitful." And thus according to John 15:2a these unfruitful branches, which allowed the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desire for other things other than the kingdom of heaven, to choke the Word, meaning they allowed the Word again to be weakened on account of their flesh (Rom 8:3), will be and will have to be cut off and thrown into the fire (Jn 15:6).

The fact that a hypothetical, condemning-Christ exists in Romans 8:34 in the context of the so-called "elect," shows that this is a stone that is left there deliberately for those who are stumbling and perishing.

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Perhaps there is a middle way that reconciles the Calvinist and the Arminian views: while Hebrews 6:4-6 indicates that genuine believers can fall away, John 10:27-30 teaches that they will not. Perhaps there is a logical possibility of apostasy, but it will not come to pass in the case of true believers. Although they could abandon their faith and come to the fate described in Hebrews 6, the grace of God prevents them from actually apostasizing. God could do this, not by making it impossible for believers to fall away, but by making it certain that they will not.

When an omnipotent God makes certain that they will not fall away (which is not scriptural) it will be impossible for a believer to fall away.

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Using the terms “can” and “will not” preserves the freedom of the individual. Believers are capable of repudiating their faith, but will freely choose not to – thanks to him who is at work in our lives.

Instead of "believers" in the above statement, i would rather qualify and use the term "those who are entirely sanctified" (1 Thess 5:23). For, those who know Christ 100 percent will not let go of Him (Jn 10:_).

If Christ is who He says He is "and He died for me, no sacrifice is too great for me to make for Him."

To the question, "Are there few that will be saved? Jesus answered in the affirmative: "Strive to enter in through the narrow gate, for many, I SAY UNTO YOU, will seek to enter in but will not be able." Matthew Henry comments: "Think how many take some pains for salvation and yet perish because they do not take enough, and you will say that there are few that will be saved and that it highly concerns us to strive: Many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able; they seek, but they do not strive. Note, The reason why many come short of grace and glory is because they rest in a lazy seeking of that which will not be attained without a laborious striving. They have a good mind to happiness, and a good opinion of holiness, and take some good steps towards both. But their convictions are weak; they do not consider what they know and believe, and, consequently, their desires are cold, and their endeavours feeble, and there is no strength or steadiness in their resolutions; and thus they come short, and lose the prize, because they do not press forward. Christ avers this upon his own word: I say unto you; and we may take it upon his word, for he knows both the counsels of God and the hearts of the children of men."


Caleb Suresh Motupalli
Church of Agape Love

P.S.: Thus says the Lord thru Luke 6:46-49 KJV:
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

In closing, thus says the Lord thru Matt 7:12-27 NASB:

"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12; 25:3)

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

"Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

"And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

"For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, (Matthew 25:3)

Final Thoughts: Revelation 3:1-6
(The said church has a name that it is alive with many branches and leaves like a fig tree, but she is as good as dead i think for there we do not see fruit on her except the leaves.)

Thus says the Father thru Hosea 11 NASB:
When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

The more they (prophets) called them, The more they went from them;

They kept sacrificing to the Baals (all the secular and other false lords of the earth) And burning incense to idols (making prayers to false gods and false ideas of who Yeshua is).

Yet it is I who taught Ephraim (one made fruitful) to walk, I took them in My arms; But they did not know that I healed them.

I led them with cords of a man, with bonds of love, And I became to them as one who lifts the yoke from their jaws; And I bent down and fed them.

They will not return to the land of Egypt; But Assyria--he will be their king Because they refused to return to Me.

The sword will whirl against their cities, And will demolish their gate bars And consume them because of their counsels.

So My people are bent on turning (backsliding) from Me. Though they call them to the One on high, None at all exalts Him.

How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled.

I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.

They will walk after the LORD, He will roar like a lion; Indeed He will roar And His sons will come trembling from the west.

They will come trembling like birds from Egypt And like doves from the land of Assyria; And I will settle them in their houses, declares the LORD.

Ephraim surrounds Me with lies And the house of Israel with deceit; Judah is also unruly against God, Even against the Holy One who is faithful.

With fear and trembling,
Caleb Motupalli

Pilgrim wrote:

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Please read Romans chapter 9 and let me know what you think. Could you also put a biblical argument which supports the "free will" or "robot arguments.

You may say something in the lines of:

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God takes someone as wretched as Jacob, or even you or me, and only to demonstrate the infallibility of His gracious Love/Word/Spirit to transform us, He chooses us (not just, calls us) before we have done anything good or bad.

The above statement, while there is some truth in it, is only half the truth. There are three assumptions made here, which are NOT true:

1. That our position in Christ is unconditionally secure.
2. That God is a God of love only and not of justice as well.
3. That the sovereign God leaves nothing to chance of man’s making as He strives/perseveres with him endlessly.

Let us discuss each in turn.

1. Is our position in Christ unconditionally secure? Did not our Lord say, “If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s Commands and remain in His love?” To the question, how may we abide in Him? Our Lord teaches here the method by which we may abide in Him: “obey my commands!” His yoke is easy and His burden is light. But nevertheless, it must be carried. Far be it, it may only be taken upon. Christ will not force it upon us. There is never a time when Christ is forcing His will upon us. He tells us of the broad way and the narrow way. If and only if we take the narrow way, we are kept secure. All along, there are little avenues leading us back again to the broad way. We have to desist from taking those avenues and keep on the straight narrow way.

"A fish is safe only as long as it remains in water." (Elizabeth Elliot? )

2. Is our God a God of love only and not of justice as well? In other words, is God a victim of His own loving? Meaning, can we commit sin with impunity and take refuge in verses like Malachi 3:6—For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed—in this so called Grace period? Is God ONLY a refining fire for those who have been born of the Spirit? Note: God had a two edged purpose of sending His Son to the earth. Love is one, which is of course known to us all. But Paul writes of another in Romans 8:3—“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.” You see, it is of paramount importance that Christ come in the flesh only—that He become incarnate and empty Himself of His divinity. It is Christ, fully and only “in the likeness of sinful flesh” that God can condemn sin in the flesh. Those who teach that Christ is fully God AND fully man at the same time, are not of God because what it amounts to is that they do not “confess that Christ has come in the flesh” (1 John 4:2). For, being God and being man are mutually exclusive.

If and only if we mortify the deeds of the flesh AND live according to the Spirit, we will live, otherwise we shall die (Romans 8:13). “We shall die” and not be merely refined in fire. Malachi 3:6 pertains to the Old Testament where God could not consume man while at the same time vindicate Himself—“the Law could not do, weak as it were through the flesh.” Therefore you see, Paul speaks of actually establishing the Law through this faith (Romans 3:31). In other words, we establish through the very same faith, which gave us peace with man and God, the just prosecution of “every tree that does not bear good fruit.”

3. Does the sovereign God leave nothing to chance of man’s making (i.e. to his free will) as He strives with him endlessly? The destructive heresy, which is today called “Calvinism” was present right from the times of the first church. As a matter of fact, Apostle Peter too referred to it in his second epistle fully acknowledging the sovereignty of God (2 Peter 2:1). Calvinism perverts the liberty that we have as Christians. It portrays God as a victim of His own loving and makes a mockery of the salvation that He offers through His Son. Calvinism attracts people to itself because it caters to the wickedness inherent in man. The heresy is destructive because it leads people to the “destruction” (Hebrews 10:39) of their souls. I beg you to open your bible and read 2 Peter 2:1-22, if possible on your knees. Do not remain untaught and unstable and thus distort Scripture, to your own “destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

There is no debating that God had chosen a remnant for Himself before the foundations of the earth. Ephesians 1:4 etc speak only of a corporate predestination because there is a qualifier namely: "in Him," which is really not a small term. It entails the meaning, "all those in the future who will abide in Him." So the question boils down to: Has God also chosen us individually before the foundations of the earth? The answer is a flat "No!" because our Lord Himself was not chosen like that in keeping with: identification with man in every way. Jesus Christ, as a human being is the best illustration to answer this critical question. Notice Luke who gives us a better account of the “exact truth” (v. 1:4) writes twice about a voice that came out of heaven/cloud. In the first instance when our Lord was being baptized the Voice said: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased.” In the second instance when our Lord was transfigured on the mountain the Voice said: “This is My Son, Chosen One; listen to Him!” He was chosen only then for us to listen to Him, because He had to identify with us in every way even in the loud cries we make to the Father and be made perfect through suffering (Hebrews 5:7-9; Hebrews 2:10-18). In fact, Christ did not refer to His own perfection/holiness when He said, “Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” And also He was not willing to offer Himself before the due time (John 10:22-39) because He hadn't become a perfect sacrifice yet. So in the first instance of the Voice, God was encouraging His Son unto holiness. But in the second instance, God is wanting to do business through His Son who, having been perfected, will henceforth have a life of His own to give life to whoever believes and obeys Him (cf. John 5:26-27). Quite a different stance on the part of God, you see?! No doubt, God chooses to invest in us (calls us) when we are born-again. Notice how Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 uses the term "calling" to denote this aspect of God who first loves us and chooses to invest in us, without whose "doing" (v. 30) no doubt, we will be nowhere, let alone, "in Him," so that there is no boasting on our part. But if we don’t produce fruit after He does the investing in us, we will be cut off. Like the first son of God (Luke 3:38) Adam, the Lord Himself was also cut off when He became "sin on our behalf" (Matthew 27:46; 2 Corinthians 5:21) in keeping with: "If your right hand causes you to sin chop it off." Be warned: "Many are called but few are chosen." Whole trees will be cut off, let alone branches, if we do not bear fruit. Why? They “use up the ground!” (Luke 13:7). Unlike in the Old Testament times, today, we have the Helper the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God will strive, not for 120 years as He did in the past (Genesis 6:3) but four years (Luke 13:7)?

He who has eyes to see, let him see what the Spirit shows clearly to the prophets!

Thus says the Holy Spirit: “Every spirit that does not confess the savior is from God, this is the spirit of the Antichrist.”

Thus says the Lord: "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,' forgive him."

God forgave us of our sins because we knew not what we did to Him as enemies (Luke 23:34; The movie, “Passion of the Christ” for what it is worth). However today we are fully knowledgeable about the good and the bad and we even have the axiom, “if we know the good we ought to do and don’t do it, we sin.” If we know of our sin today, we will get forgiveness only if we ask for forgiveness and not any other wise.

My prayer is that i myself bear some fruit of my own among you.

Caleb Motupalli
P.S.: Thus says the Lord in closing: Matt 16:1-12.

A brother recently sent me an SMS message of a verse that i think we did not cover in this thread as yet. It is Phil 2:13. The brother has some version of the Bible that has translated it as:

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It is God who works in you both the WILLING and the WORKING according to His good pleasure...

The NASB translates Phil 2:13 as:

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for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

For a moment i was caught by surprise but on close examination i realized there is a vast difference between the above two translations. My English grammar is not that good but i can see the difference. In the former, it is God who is the one causing the WILLING in us for everything that we have ever willed and will ever will--we are puppets or automatons in God's hand. But in the later, it Is God who is at work in us, TO [A PROBABLE OR POSSIBLE] WILL ON OUR PART for His good pleasure. The reason i say, "probable or possible will" because it is not always that you will will. Paul is saying WHEN YOU DO WILL it is God who enabled it. But on your part you did yield to His will, which is work. And finally it is not you who gets the glory but God. That's the objective of that verse.


You see, God is omniscient only to the extent He wants to be. He does not cross into our private space of our heart, though He searches our heart if there is a wicked way in it when we want Him to search us. He is a gentle-God you see. God can do without being omniscient. He does not need to know our private space, because He is omnipotent! He is Almighty to rectify something when we go astray in our freewill! "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28).
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© 2006-2015 Caleb S. Motupalli

~Most of our problems will be solved if only we yield our freewill to the Lord's will.~

Last edited by Caleb on Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

It is not without reason that our Lord asked us to turn the other cheek to the smiter. This is only to fill the smiter with blame and reproach (Lamentations 3:30).

The same is true with God's grace as well. He gives us a long rope of grace. A case in point is Pharaoh. Many miracles were done in his midst. But he hardened his heart. God further hardened it foreknowing his heart. At one point if we follow the way of Pharaoh even the most simple minded will condemn us to death. Or for that matter we will find ourselves guilty of such sin that we will condemn ourselves to death. We will plead for the mountains to fall upon us. Such is the nature of grace in light of truth.

Amazing grace?
Definitely amazing but with a caveat!

Your watchdog,
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© 2006-2015 Caleb S. Motupalli

~Most of our problems will be solved if only we yield our freewill to the Lord's will.~

John 5:14

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Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

Let alone loosing rewards, abused mercy turns into the greatest wrath (Luke 12:39-48).

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And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

As we can see here, these Words of Jesus are in agreement with Hebrews 10:26-31

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For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Therefore the warning is very much applicable to all sinners believers and unbelievers (for their continued sin of unbelief--the unpardonable sin) alike.
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© 2003-2015 Caleb S. Motupalli
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~All our problems will be solved if we yield our freewill to God's will~